Officer Dmytro Savchenko: "I see how people survive in war and what relaxing atmosphere exists in relatively rear cities, where they do not refuse themselves anything at all"

Dmytro Savchenko, an officer of the 1st Separate Assault Battalion named after Hero of Ukraine Dmytro Kotsiubailo "Da Vinci", posted photos of the meeting between the soldiers and the prisoners on his Facebook page, captioning them as follows: "Did you think that only prigozhin and utkin can do this? No. We have immersed ourselves in this process and are addressing the prisoners in the most understandable language possible... After all, we knew the patterns and algorithms on the other side of the barricades. The underground, hard labor in exile, resistance... All in the name of Great Ukraine! And our convicts are about five times more ideological than the shitty Wagner. We will fight and defeat the enemy!" We talked to Dmytro about the details of this process.  

-  With your permission, I'll quote a phrase that you said to me when we agreed to have an interview: "We are assembling an airplane on the fly with this initiative to mobilize prisoners". This, in my opinion, is a serious challenge. This is an extra credit question. How did you come to this decision? 

- We did not come to this decision, but the Verkhovna Rada adopted the relevant law. We are just implementing it. On this way, we face completely new challenges, because government agencies do not yet have tested algorithms for action. In other words, we, the military, are the pioneers in this social experiment. In total, four parties are involved: The State Penitentiary Service (SPS), the TCR (Territorial Centres of Recruitment), the court and the military unit. These are organizations with different lines of authority. They are trying to bring this process together. And we play the role of its moderators: we carry out a kind of managerial work and work together with them. Everyone should be given proper respect: everyone is making efforts in their own way - both the SPS, despite their workload, and the TCRs are constantly processing large volumes of documents for each convict, and the courts are trying, even at night, to issue decisions on conditional early release. After all, all the players in this big game have to do a huge amount of work in the shortest possible time. And the military unit, which directly receives conversion from this process, is the most interested party. We were the ones who received the order to form separate units from the convicts. We are trying to synchronize everything in time and space. Indeed, it is a very difficult and hard job.

-  I was just referring to the fact that your unit is one of the first to implement this initiative. Weren't there any concerns, given that we're talking about a certain segment of society that has an ambiguous attitude? 

- Look, we're just executives. We can't afford to say no to our superiors if we're getting a new troop list. We are military men. We have to follow the orders of the command, which is implementing this process not on its own initiative, but in accordance with the law. The Verkhovna Rada adopted the law. At the stage when it was still being considered, there were debates and discussions in the committees. It was discussed. In the end, the state decided to undertake such a difficult social experiment in order to reduce the degree of tension with mobilization. You can see that it is going on rather stiffly and spasmodically. Society reacts to it painfully. On the one hand, it wants victories. On the other hand, it wants them to be achieved by someone else's hands. Accordingly, the state's leaders faced the task of finding an additional mobilization resource in the social body to reduce the burden on people and at the same time meet the current needs for recruitment in the Armed Forces. That is why the government took this step. Our task is to implement it.

- You visit prisons to meet with prisoners. Could you tell us how it goes?

- We have already visited about ten correctional institutions (as of May 31, when we recorded this interview - O.M.). During this time, we have developed a certain algorithm for working with convicts. I will say this: some of our military colleagues who conduct recruitment in places of detention somewhat underestimate the role of such explanatory conversations. We, unlike them, go to the local station where the prisoners live. We see three or four hundred of them on the parade ground in front of us. We create a sort of conditional circle, giving them the opportunity to come closer to us and talk to us. We emphasize sincere communication. We try to explain why it is necessary to defend our homeland, why there is a need to involve convicts in combat operations. We try to make them understand that this is a sacred and honorable mission, their duty as men. We emphasize that being a man means having not just the genitals, but also the spirit, nobility and ability to fulfill a defense mission. In addition, it is an important chance for them to rehabilitate themselves in the eyes of society. Each of them made a mistake at some point in their lives if they found themselves in places of detention. But now they have the opportunity to put an end to their past history and move to a different social level by becoming military personnel. Defending the homeland, mothers, sisters, wives and daughters is always noble and honorable. Using this simple logic and explanations with real-life examples, we try to prove to them why they should join the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Today they are convicts. Part of society has an aversion to this category of citizens. But if they become military personnel, they will become a respected layer of society. In the future, children will thank them on the streets for taking up arms and daring to defend our holy Ukraine. I can tell you that our arguments work and play a positive role in this recruitment campaign. We also take time for questions and answers. Then we say: "Anyone interested in our unit and service in the Armed Forces can come to the inspector of the Executive Service who is on duty, and he will form a list." After that, the convicts who have expressed such a desire continue to communicate with us on an individual basis. For the most part, it takes place at the headquarters of the correctional facility - usually the head of the facility provides his office for this purpose. The convicts come in one by one. Here we ask more practical questions of an applied nature to test each of them and understand whether they are suitable for the combat work of our unit. After all, there are different types of units - mechanized, motorized infantry, air assault, etc. We understand what criteria a potential "applicant" for an assault unit like ours must meet. These are good physical condition, no addiction to alcohol and drugs and no relevant experience, as well as diseases such as HIV, hepatitis C, tuberculosis. You have to look lively. I would like to note that many convicts look rather feeble because of their lifestyle. These are people who did not take care of their health and systematically used illegal substances. They will not be able to fulfill the amount of physical activity that will fall on their shoulders after joining our unit.

- How many people do you "sort out"?

-More than half. According to my intuitive feeling, out of the total number of convicts with whom we communicate, we "sort out" about 65-70 percent. However, at the end of each conversation, I say: "Thank you, my friend, for your position, for your desire to fight and defend your country - it is noble and honorable. I'm sorry, it's nothing personal, but you don't fit the format of our work. Another unit can take you. We have a very specific job that requires a certain fit." That's how we try to talk to them delicately and diplomatically. I see this as the only possible tool for building healthy communication. Let me explain why. Ukraine's social experiment with prisoners is significantly different from the one conducted by the Russians two years ago at the beginning of the full-scale invasion. Because Ukraine is a state governed by the rule of law. It cannot afford to use, for example, coercive motivation against prisoners, to form barrier troops out of them and, like the Wagnerians, to shoot prisoners in the presence of their colleagues for, for example, leaving their position or going to the AWOL. "Wagner does exactly that. They have an internal punitive service called "ia" (internal affairs), whose representatives organize such executions. I know this because last year I had the opportunity to interrogate Wagner prisoners in the Bakhmut direction. I had quite detailed conversations with them. It was important for me to understand how their system works, what are the main elements of the mechanism and structural construction of such units formed from the problematic contingent. For example, the Wagnerites can afford to shoot a prisoner who has left the position in front of everyone in order to intimidate the rest of the team, so that everyone else does not want to do the same. They can cut off a finger or hand for some minor violation. In Ukraine, it is impossible to use such methods of influence on prisoners. And we are, once again, a state governed by the rule of law. We have to build communication and interaction with prisoners exclusively within the legal framework. Therefore, in order to get a conversion from this social experiment, we need to follow the path of pedagogy. I realize that this is a lengthy space-time process, and the war requires quick and efficient solutions. But, unfortunately, we are in this dilemma: we need to reach their understanding in the shortest possible time, re-educate this public and then expect that they can be useful at the front. 

- Are there any convicts among those you talked to who have military experience?

- Yes, and quite a few. There are those convicted under various articles, for example, for hooliganism, with combat experience in the ATO, JFO...

- It's an additional advantage... ...

- I agree, this is a plus. We give priority to such people.

- What is the reaction of the convicts at these meetings? What do they tell you?

- In our basic motivational speech, we try to disclose even the smallest details as much as possible, explaining what awaits them. The convicts come to our office and say: "Guys, look, many of us were afraid to write applications for participation in hostilities because no one explained to us what we would do, what tasks we would perform." People can also be understood to a certain extent, because for most people war is a complete unknown. Their level of awareness of military affairs is no more than watching some videos on the news or a telegram. So, in addition to general information, we reveal the history and traditions of our unit. We warn you: there are no forms of high here, i.e. no alcohol or drugs. We are not a penal colony where you can secretly swallow a pill and walk around in a state of drug intoxication. We radically condemn this. Since we are a volunteer organization, we still have old traditions that Da Vinci himself actively promoted and followed. We punish for a  drive severely.

I try to find a personal approach to each convict. If I see that a previous lifestyle (alcohol consumption) has left marks on a person's face, I say: "Friend, you will receive a salary, and you will be tempted to buy something - alcohol or drugs." If he gives me his word of honor that he will not do this, it is one conversation. But then I warn him: "If you break your word, I will be in your worst dreams. You will see me in them, and you will break out in a cold sweat. Because your injuries will remind you of what you did." By the way, this unwritten rule applies not only to convicts but also to ordinary military personnel. "Da Vinci" himself "gave the boot" for drinking alcohol - any form of drive, I repeat, is strictly prohibited. We are telling you this. We promise that we will not introduce any statutory formalities, such as rendering a salute where it is necessary and not necessary, standing on the nightstand, or dropping and giving. We don't have that, but the discipline in our unit must remain ironclad. There is work to be done. If a person shows positive behavior while performing a combat mission, they will be treated accordingly. We are not bureaucrats or sadists. We will not mock them. They find themselves in a comrade-in-arms environment. We tell them that our team consists of different people with different backgrounds - some worked in law enforcement, some were in prison, but we are all united by the idea of defending holy Ukraine and de-occupying Ukrainian territories. We gathered in the ranks of one unit for this reason alone. Not to prove to each other who was cooler - the convicts or the "cops", or who had the biggest testicles. No! We are here to do combat work. That's it! So if they are satisfied with such principles of life, the doors of our unit are open. In general, for many fighters, it has already become a second family. That's how we explain and try to relay the atmosphere of our team to them. When we have a sincere conversation with them, they see that we are open and do not lie. They are interested in this, so they are more willing to write statements. 

I'll tell you this: by holding such motivational talks with prisoners, we are working in the interests not only of our unit but also of the whole society. After all, the common problem is that we do not communicate with convicts. Communication entails a certain didactic influence. We have become involved in the process of didactics. Of course, we are not immune from some dishonest people who may feign a sincere desire to fulfill their honorable male defense mission during the interview, but in fact are guided by other interests. But in general, I am convinced that most of these convicts will turn out to be quite good fighters.

- Indeed, the human factor cannot be dismissed in any situation. As well as public criticism of government decisions. The so-called "betrayal" has already started on social media, including your post, asking how we are different from Russia if we also involve convicts in the war. 

- This is what people say who are, firstly, far from the war, and secondly, do not want to get involved in the combat process. These are natural provocateurs! They get pleasure from radiating their skepticism at any endeavor while trying to save the day. Let's be frank: our mobilization process is half a failure. Instead of trying to help, some people sit on the couch and only criticize the actions of others. The guys arranged themselves nicely: they do not join the fighting in any way, but discuss and provide "expert" opinions on the activities of the rest. I think this is unworthy and dishonorable. Therefore, I do not care what some pseudo-experts say. I can tell you from my life experience: when you are criticized, it means you are on the right track. After all, only those who do nothing are not criticized. You know, what we have now is that one part of society is going out of its way to save the country, while the other part has been hiding behind them and has not thought about any rotation for three years. They only want to win a war with our hands against one of the largest countries in the world, which has endless natural resources and sources of funding. Let them go fight if they don't like the experiment with convicts!

- But if the rear forgets about the front, the front will be where the rear is...

-I am convinced that the rear has betrayed the front!  I see how people survive the war and what a relaxed atmosphere exists in the relatively rear cities, where they drive cabriolets, eat in restaurants, go to gyms and generally do not refuse themselves anything. The format of their life during a full-scale war has not changed and is no different from what it was before February 24, 2022. The president tells us: "Where did you see demobilization during the war?" I would like to ask him a counter question: "Where did you see such relaxation during the war?" If you are comparing ours to the Second World War, then I am sorry, but back then the home front worked in five shifts at factories! And here in Kyiv, Lviv, and Mukachevo, they sit on summer terraces and drink mojitos. At the same time, soldiers are told that there will be no demobilization because there is a war! Does it apply only to the mobilized? And why don't the civilians feel the full brunt of it? Why does one have to die in a trench, while the other is on vacation drinking cocktails? And the presidential authorities have only one thing on their minds: not to reduce the number of civilians likes. For their part, they give expert opinions on the actions of the military from their sofas. If only they would just shut their mouths and sit quietly! The problem is that the government has not initiated the process of militarizing the rear. And it had to be done! Yes, I agree that not all people have to fight. One part of society goes to the front, and the other part, which remains, should switch to a militarized way of life. But this is not happening! We don't have continuously idle factories making tanks and missiles. We have discos, parties, concerts. Everyone collects some kind of donations. What do I need them for now? Better come and replace me at the front with your presence! I have been at war for five years. And they're still set themselves up: "We are helping the military". But you are not helping them, you are helping yourself - you are ensuring your safety! There is no heroism here! I would like to say to all my rear-friends: "This is actually your civic duty!"

- At the beginning of the full-scale invasion, there was unity and a desire to defend the country. What went wrong?

- People are 90 percent emotionally driven. Very few people have such a systematic, fundamental and sustainable approach to certain life missions. People saw that there was a surge, euphoria, and they got excited. But you can never build a defense strategy on emotions. In order to increase the defense capability of society, it was necessary to prolong this emotion in time and space through the media. In our country, the government gave society the illusion of security, deprived it of the feeling of existential threat, and then, before the social experiment with prisoners, suddenly tried to force representatives of the rear strata of society into the trenches by contrast. It doesn't work that way! In order for the mobilization to be successful, society had to be kept in a state of tension. And they did not think that the war would be so long. They did not analyze the previous historical experience of the Russian Empire in achieving its strategic goals. Unfortunately, Russia knows how to play a long game.  Its main trump card is a prolonged resource war. That is why in most cases it gained an advantage and success in armed confrontation with its opponents. And we planned to win in three weeks. The authorities played along with this emotional state. Instead, it was necessary to convey to society the unfortunate truth that the war could last for years, so we should not relax. There shouldn't be such a contrast within one society: some people are constantly at war, while others are relaxing and swimming in pools. I repeat: their life during the full-scale war is no different from what they had before it. Not at all! That is why I draw attention to the fact that this is a complex problem. 

- In this context, I will quote your recent quote: "Surviving the war is half the battle. The main thing is to survive the post-war years, which will be very interesting and tumultuous." I take it that this complex problem you have just voiced is scalable? 

- Because a huge social conflict is coming up between combatants and rear. And it will happen! Combatants will return from the trenches with a heightened sense of justice. They will want some kind of satisfaction, including saying a lot of unpleasant things to the face of the rear of society. The law of recompense may work for them. They can be disrespectful to the rear, you know! And all this can result in direct domestic disputes, committing some kind of violation of laws. In order to avoid this conflict in society, the authorities should regulate these processes and prevent such a stark contrast in life formats - between the trench and the "mojito-relaxed" one. If it exists, it will definitely end in such a sluggish civil war after this one. I don't want to whip up tension but this is what could happen.

Olha Moskaliuk, Censor.NET

Photo: Dmytro Savchenko`s Facebook