"Most often I tell all my subordinates "don’t lie". This is most important command," Oleksandr Bukatar, Battalion Commander of Spartan Brigade of NGU

- As a commander, what is your main command?

- Most often, I tell all my subordinates "Don't lie". This is the most important command because it is exactly what creates all sorts of situations. 

- What can the military lie to the commander about?

- In the military, there are rules and regulations, and people are afraid of some kind of punishment, just like in life, so they either withhold the truth or lie in order to... I'll say what I did now and finish it tomorrow, or it's still being done, and I'll say what I did and then finish it. This is one of the most important commands for me, as you say.

- How do you punish those who cheat?

- My subordinates will be watching anyway, and I tell them that I have a rich imagination, I won't reveal my secrets and let them have theirs...

- This is a surprise. Can you order them all to watch this interview? We'll get views, and you'll get recognition as well.

- What should subordinates do if they don't like their commander?

- A commander in a large ratio will generally be bad for a soldier. A slightly higher level of commander, and then further, because it's war, and war requires a lot of effort. And people are a little bit lazy, they want to do something "for later," and war does not forgive this. You have to do it right now and right at this moment. And when you demand this from your subordinates, you automatically become not very good for them, relatively speaking. Fairness? I think I treat fairly but I repeat once again that it is not for me to judge. 

- I looked at your responsibilities on the website, what a commander should be able to do and know, and it says that he should know the psychological and moral state of his soldiers.

- Subunits.

- Given the current conditions, when there is fatigue from the war, when there is no one to replace it, when, as you say, it is not clear how the situation will unfold, how do you assess the moral and psychological state of your subordinates?

- There is always room for growth and improvement, but if we are talking about "good" and "satisfactory", "good" or "excellent", I can say "good". We are constantly working on this, in my unit, in our brigade, the training process never stops. We try to constantly improve people, so that no one can say, "We went to the training center for a month and a half, then immediately war, and were unloaded from the bus to the position," but this is not true. Commanders are constantly working with people, training them, participating in training whenever possible, almost the entire battalion headquarters is involved, psychologists are working, doctors are working, so the soldiers are being given comprehensive development. So when I ask the company commanders about the state of the unit or visit the unit and talk to them, they tell me that everything is fine.

- More or less, at an average level, not excellent?

-More or less, yes.

- And these stories about "meat assaults", actually, there is talk about them, we have such cases in general, I'm not talking specifically about your unit... Can it be possible that a person is sent straight from the training center to combat?

-It seems to me, probably, yes, but there is one "but". Training centers are different and training is different. I know of cases where a person was mobilized, trained here at the training center, offered by the unit to go abroad for another 2 months, went abroad for another 2 months, and, relatively speaking, studied for 4-5 months. It happens. Then they come back and are immediately sent to perform combat operations, and I'm sorry, but training is different. Let's just say that it is impossible to prepare them 100%, you try to model situations that occur in combat, but they are still not similar. You teach the basics, the principles of war, but the situation can be completely unpredictable and only depends on the morale, on each soldier and the senior who goes with them, how the event will develop.

- Are there any women in your battalion?

-No.

- Is this a principled position?

-No, this is not a principled position, it just so happened that I had a female psychologist officer, she was promoted and so far no others have been recruited.

- Do you mind if women are with you...?

- To do what? To fight? Or what?

-Well, look, we have a girl in another unit, she was an MMA (mixed martial arts) fighter in civilian life, so she has such a character, she wanted to go on assaults. When we were in the Zaporizhzhia direction, I met her and invited her to join my unit, it would have been better for the battalion, I saw a position for her that would have been positive for my unit, but she decided to go to another, also specific unit, to stay in the war, I could not persuade her, she decided, so...

- In what cases are you not against women fighting?

-Yes, an example of this... Before that, I had a medic who dealt with patients, hospitals, and she was promoted, and how can I forbid it when people grow up, grow as professionals, fighters, so I only support this.

- It's just that there are commanders who don't want women in their units because they are destructive and say that there are different situations, men can perceive a woman's presence differently, and so they say, I'm better off without all this. Although in fact, I had wonderful women soldiers during my interviews, they have great relationships with their commanders, so it depends on.

- Here I can say that women can be different, let's face it. A colleague of the battalion commander, I know for sure, has a girl, she is the commander of a communications platoon, and he just constantly speaks positively about her, she is a professional in her field.

- The National Guard has Rubizh, Spartan, and Charter - do you compete with each other?

-I think so, but no one publicizes it. I think there is some kind of competition, indirect, not supervisory, but there is still internal competition because if there was no competition, people would not develop. I think everyone has competition in everything, no matter what structure we adopt, the divisions still compete with each other, just like my company. They communicate, they are friends, comrades in arms, I mean unit commanders, companies, mortar batteries, they all communicate, they all solve issues, so there is no enmity, but they still compete with each other.

- For example, I don't know if you're saying Charter is the best equipped, or someone else, have they something you haven't?

- I get it. Our competition is in the war, in the tactics of war, in the performance of combat missions, in the moral and psychological aspects, in the state of the unit, here there is competition, against the backdrop of war and combat operations, not who has the biggest gun or the most number of people. No, everyone is trying to improve their unit, you want better, more, it's normal, you have to be armed to the teeth, but there is still competition in combat, who fights how, I think there is competition. For example, I say these are cool guys, really cool... They are "rexes", they "make the wind" and this is praise, and this is competition anyway.

- How did you decide to go to war, you had a choice not to go?

-Yes, as a policeman I could use the slogan "the police should not fight". How? I have no other way for myself. How can I not fight when my country was attacked so insidiously, even if it wasn't insidious, it was attacked anyway, and I was against it from the very first days... By the way, when the full-scale invasion began, I was in Kyiv, on business.

- Did you know what was going to happen?

-I didn't want to believe it. Frankly speaking, everyone was saying, I said, how can it be, this is the 21st century, all people are civilized, how can you just attack another country? It's not like we live in the Middle Ages, when one tsar came to power and wanted this territory, and the troops went.

- And so it happened.

-It happened, yes, I'm telling you, but I had this thought and I didn't want to believe it, and when it happened, my partner called me and said: "The war has started". I was here, I think, okay, I took a sports bag, the first thing, it was February, I understood that it would be cool, I needed layered clothing, I threw the most important things and in 4 hours I was in Kharkiv. I remember when I was driving on the highway, there was a queue - everyone was from there, and I was the only one going the other way, and we had the last checkpoint before Kharkiv, the town of Valky, and there were 2 lanes, and when I was driving there were 3 lanes going the other way, and I was the only one. I was driving and everyone was looking at me with such eyes, like - Where are you going? We're all going there, where are you going? I was driving along, just remembering these eyes that I caught. 

- Did you then condemn those who did not want to fight and did not pack their layered clothing and go like you?

- To condemn? No, it was then that I wanted to get to my hometown as soon as possible, take up arms and start doing something. That's how it happened, I arrived, immediately went, got an assault rifle, everything, some armor, a helmet, and started thinking: I had to do something, because at that time Kharkiv was in panic, there was so much disinformation, no one knew who was doing what, there was a lot of information about the breakthroughs. My partner who called me was also in Kharkiv, and another one, too, so at first we formed a small team and started driving around the city looking for either a subversive group or tanks or something else, and started to engage in some military activity.

- Now you don't condemn those who are not at war? Let's talk about this. What is your attitude towards those who are not in the army now, those of your age.

-I'll put it simply - the duty of every man, when he is born and his gender identity reveals that he is a man, then from that moment on he has the duty to defend himself, his family, women, children, his homeland and land.

- I think we can put the lid on the matter of your attitude towards those who are not at war. Oleksandr, tell us, in which directions have you fought so far?

- From Kharkiv. Kharkiv was semi-encircled from the very beginning, from the very first days, so we managed to fight in Kharkiv itself. On the 3rd day of the war, we were faced with, as everyone knows, the burned school in Kharkiv, the 134th, on Shevchenko Street, the enemy's breakthrough, the city of Kharkiv itself, on the 3rd day, February 27, the first battle was fought there, then I was in almost all directions in the Kharkiv region when it was near Kharkiv. Then the counteroffensive, we went to Kupiansk, Luhansk region, Donetsk region, Zaporizhzhia region. In other words, during this time I was not only in Kherson. While I was an infantryman for a year and a half, it was both easier and harder to fight. It was easier because at that time the war was not so developed, i.e. FPV drones.

- Technically?

-Technically. You were being fired at with a tank, artillery, you were running like a bunny, hiding, then going and shooting. It was more complicated here: we were not managed by anyone, we had training, we were given photos, a map, the terrain, you got to know the groups that would go with you, the right, the left, and that's it, the general background and that's it. There was no such thing as someone saying into your walkie-talkie, "You're going the wrong way!" "Turn left, turn right". No, you just came, looked at the photo, and if the terrain matched, then I was on the right track, so I went and opened a map, a compass, and so on. Technically, it was both easier and harder. It was a little bit easier because everyone was so... maximally motivated, angry, everyone just wanted to tear to pieces.

- Do you see any risks specific to Kharkiv region in particular?

-I can simply answer logically here - if he didn't need it, he wouldn't have gone there a second time, which is the answer that he needs it, probably as one of his victories.

- Why did Putin fail to seize the region the second time around?

-Because we are probably not the same as in 2022. During this time, I can say frankly and proudly that we know how to fight, so it is not a cakewalk for the enemy.

- The enemy, you see, is also learning, the enemy also knows how to fight, and they are technically equipped in the same way...

-Unfortunately.

- Yes, and so are we. How do you assess the enemy now, as of the end of summer, and what do you think their autumn campaign might look like?

- We all understand that they have several great potentials: human resources, not unlimited, but very large, especially their attitude to their people, to Russians in general, there is no "willing or not" principle, so if necessary, I think they will use women as stormtroopers, force them to go and they will go - this is the first thing. The second thing is the same - their capacities for manufacturing various types of UAVs, weapons, and financial cushion are not small in a war in which they are contributing. Unfortunately, we are developing, and they are developing, and they are doing it very well. Then let's take one factor - when this all started, where was Russia in the world's armies?

- On the second.

-In second place, and we are far from second place, they already had a background, relatively speaking, and they used it while we reached them, they used it, and then we moved on to develop and they started to develop further, to improve themselves in the same way. In the fall, I think nothing will change from the point of view of people, that is, this is a resource that means nothing to them, and they have been using it as meat and will continue to use it, I think nothing will change here. From a technical point of view, I am not an engineer, a lot of things have already been invented and, frankly, I am even afraid to think what else can be invented.

- As of now, what is the mood in the Kharkiv region? Given that the Russians entered the region and that there are people who cooperated with the Russians, including police officers, you know the story, it's not just in the Kharkiv region, it happened in the Zaporizhzhia region as well... What is the mood in the region now?

-In the region? You know...

- I mean, is it war fatigue, or do people see what the ending should be?

- We've talked about fatigue several times before. What is fatigue?

- Fatigue is when I don't want to see or hear news about the war, when I don't want to be involved in the war. When I am in the house, it is also tiredness.

-Look, you say I don't want this or that. I don't want to fight either, relatively speaking, let's say I didn't start fighting because I have nothing better to do. I thought I'll go and fight. No, because I have no other choice, and this is exactly the kind of fatigue we can talk about when we have no choice, it was not our choice, it was forced upon us, we were forced to do it, to fight, to endure, and so on, so, honestly, I see... Fatigue... For everyone, this is a different concept of "fatigue," but we are not doing this by choice. We are here by choice, but we are not doing it by choice. Kharkiv is living, as a city, living a full-fledged life. The worst thing is that people are getting used to it, getting used to the explosions, to the hits, to the war in general. It is, frankly, scary. It's scary because people get used to bad things.

- Are you used to war?

- I repeat, I have no choice, so... And I will say that I am not tired, I came here on my own, I started fighting on my own, I was put in obstacles to fight, I was not allowed to do so in every way, I went through all this, broke down obstacles, jumped over, made my way, fought, fought, participated in various assaults, and how can I get tired of what I chose?

- It is logical.

- Everyone needs to understand that the war is not over, we have not won yet, when we do, I will exhale and say that it was hard or not hard, during this period I was tired or not tired, and at the moment I have no right to be tired.

- What is the main risk for you in an assault?

- For me, it was always because I was still the commander of the assault group, I always went first, because in general, I did not know how to do it differently and tactically, and it should be different, nowadays, for example, I teach, the unit teaches, the commander of even a group should not go first, because it is a risk, the senior falls, the group can simply become demoralized and not complete the task, and in general they can simply all die, it is very sad. For me, the worst thing and the most important thing was the loss of my guys, who follow me, follow me, constantly. For me, it was the most difficult, the most terrible thing, there were so many different situations - stay here, I'm going to go with someone from a neighboring unit, then we'll continue, I'll come back and that's it. For me, the worst thing was that something would happen to them. We were probably lucky because we were in different situations.

- What is the most difficult situation?

- There were situations when 120mm mines fell 5 meters away from you, cut off trees, demolished them, and you were standing in a trench up to your waist, and after the assault we were retreating and mortar fire was chasing us. It seemed that we were done, we were standing in a trench and a mine fell 5 meters away from us... Of course, everyone was shell-shocked, some of us lost consciousness, but then you realized that you were alive, your arms and legs were still there. The second incident, also after the assault, was in the Luhansk direction, Svatove district, when we were working, we had losses, we were carrying the dead and walking in a chain. We had already reached our positions where we could hide, and the first shot hit us in the ground and the second shot hit a guy who was walking behind me 10 meters away. He was hit by a direct hit from a tank, that is... we went on... it did not end there, we had such a way to retreat, the evacuation of the wounded took a long time and a very long distance. Remembering this, I realized that it was not my turn yet.

- Is there any fear at all?

- All the time.

- Never disappears?

- Never.

- Is there no such thing as adrenaline, drive, and not thinking about fear?

- Look, I think everyone is afraid, but the most important thing is how you can overcome your fear. For example, before every assault, every mission, it's not just reconnaissance, you realize that you're going into battle, I didn't sleep, if you measure my blood pressure or pulse, everything was constantly off scale. Before that, I used to go out the day before to scout the route from where we were going to go, and all this time I was very, very nervous, everything. I caught myself thinking later, when the mission is being carried out in a car, you are driving and worrying, and as soon as I got out of the car, I realized that the mission had begun, I felt calm. I tried to overcome fear and calmness, because I realized that the lives of everyone who follows me depend on me, my decisions, my actions affect everything. If I panic, they will panic too, and if I start making wrong decisions, there will be consequences. Somehow I caught myself later - I felt calmer when I started to complete the task. Was I scared? Of course, I was scared. But I was able to control this fear and act on the situation.

- And after the task, how did you feel?

- Fatigue. Physical and moral fatigue, and the fact that - when the mission is over - if it is successfully completed and you have not suffered any particular losses or no losses at all, or they are minimal - you are like a winner, you are in a good mood, that's it, you have a drive, as you said.

- I learned the words "drive", "fever", "money" with the military, I know everything now...

- You see, this military slang is interesting. Do you understand when it's a failure, when you come back with a failure - how can you feel? You're tired. You are depressed. You start analysing what you did wrong and what you could have done in this situation...

- Yes...

- And in general, there was an opportunity... I remember in the Kharkiv region, it was May 2022 or June, I don't remember, it was the village of Ternova, it is located right on the border, 2 km away from Russia, Kharkiv district... There was also a video of a TDF battalion putting up a painted frontier marker, filming a video for the president, showing that we were on the border, Mr. President, going back and forth... And literally two days later, the enemy invaded the area so badly that half the village was immediately recaptured. It was under occupation, then it was recaptured, this video shows, and the orcs have recaptured most of it, the border and all. We had a task to assault that part of the village, where the Armed Forces controlled the lower two streets, and everything else was... And we came, this was a tall order: here, relatively speaking, we can model meat assaults, someone will say "but they sent us to kill, it's impossible, it's a meat assault." Yes, the task was very difficult from the very beginning, very difficult. It's not that they don't have logistical support, it's that they are at home there, because they have everything along the border, artillery, tanks, everything, and it's very difficult, "mammoth", you could say, but we wouldn't take it back in any other way, but we have to try, we have to do it. And how will we return our lands, our villages? We did it anyway, we went there. Now they would say "it's a meat assault", at that time we realized that it was difficult, maybe it would be the last assault for us, but we still somehow tuned in to it every time, because we are realists, and this is war. We got there, we made an advance, about half, a little more than our task and that's it, then they started to strike us with tanks, 3 tanks went to the prepared positions and just started demolishing everything. They were working in a double take, two at once or one, two, three, and so on... I don't know how long they were doing it.  We were beaten unmercifully, shelled, then fired at with all sorts of artillery and everything else. We got held up on, we realized that the day was running out, we wouldn't be able to do anything at night, we had to try to withdraw. To withdraw is also a foxtrail, an interesting one. For each task, from where you were rushed to and to get there, it's more than one kilometer. It's not like you are dropped off and immediately in a village, no, you have to walk to that village, go through hills, forests, and plantations for 2-3 kilometers. 

- How did it end?

- We withdrew, there were wounded people there, everyone withdrew, everyone was pulled out, but we did not fulfill the task. Let's just say that we got our asses handed to us, how else to say it? I came back to the question: what kind of mood can you have? How can you feel after that? You're exhausted both physically and mentally, you've done something, but it's not one hundred percent and you haven't accomplished your task. 

The situation in the Kursk region is developing dynamically now, we are talking now, we do not know how it will be tomorrow and the next day as well, this operation that is taking place now, just recently the Minister of Defense said that this is one of the most difficult military operations and our Defense Forces are working there in really difficult conditions. How would you assess what is happening now in Kursk region and our entry into the territory of the Russian Federation in general from a military point of view?

- Regarding what the Minister of Defense said about it being difficult, I can confirm as a military man that it is indeed difficult.

- The border breakthrough itself?

- Breaking through the border, such a march, such a territory, the amount of territory - it's difficult both tactically and in terms of all the considerations. It's not just a transit and that's it. I understand that this is offensive, plus it's all being held somehow. It is difficult to say what is happening and how it is happening, I always say that only those who are there know the situation as it is. Even as a military man, I know no more than you do from information on telegram channels or speeches by senior officials. If we take the situation itself and say what is happening and how, these are the top-level people, the commanders and the Minister of Defense, who know exactly what they are talking about because they have this information.

- Probably because they know at least the ultimate goal of all this

- Both the initial and the final one.

- And we do not know this. I just see that there are even people who criticize this operation, either because of a lack of information...

- Let me ask you a question, a clarification - who is criticizing?

- Those who sit on the other side of the screen... With respect to everyone, sitting on the couch is also a job, it's probably hard... But indeed, these are military experts, different ones, there are those who say that maybe we shouldn't have, pay attention to Pokrovsk, we have now ignored this moment...

- I can say one thing, and I've always said this: criticizing is the easiest thing to do. To do this, you don't need anything at all, no training, no development, nothing. It's just such an easy thing to say that everything is wrong and I would have done it differently. There are so many examples, in the military as well, where people criticize everything, but I would have done this, I would have done that, and then when it comes to doing it, go ahead... Or something else. It often happens that people are dissatisfied, criticize, and then when you tell them: "Oh, look, there's a position open, go ahead! Show me! Here you go..." "No, no, no, I don't want to..." and a hundred different excuses start... He always has some reason not to do it.

- It is a pity that this is the case, a pity that we have such people, but that's the way it is. Thank you very much for the conversation.

Anna Miroshnychenko, "Who is with Miroshnychenko?"