War veteran Serhii Velychanskyi: "Government’s Veterans Policy Strategy is just same like billion trees."

We met on the phone in the summer of 2022, when he was fighting in the Kharkiv region as part of the 130th Battalion of the TDF (Territorial Defence Forces). We talked about what was happening at the front, the liberation of the Kyiv region and life before the full-scale war.

Today, he deals with war veterans' issues. He is also one of them, having been discharged from the Armed Forces for health reasons. So we were able to meet in person to tell you what happens to a soldier after he becomes a war veteran.

-Tell us about your discharge from the service.

- Since the summer, I have been in a situation where I spend two weeks in the hospital, then two weeks on duty, and so on, in a cycle. I underwent many examinations because I have quite serious thyroid problems, which are grounds for discharge, as I cannot meet the physical requirements. I went through the MMC (Military Medical Commission), and they kept me in a military hospital for six weeks to accurately assess my condition and prescribe the correct daily medication dosage. Then I received a conclusion that I was unfit for service and had to be discharged with my name removed from the register. This happened in October. In November and December, the process was still delayed, even though the order clearly states that in such circumstances, discharge should be immediate. In reality, it took two months.

-Why is that?

- I don't know. You can't influence such things in the army. Let’s take a simple situation where you sometimes feel helpless. I went through the MMC  and waited for a decision for some time. Then, I went to the hospital myself, and they told me: "We sent the decision to your military unit ten days ago." I took the original documents and went to the unit. There, they told me: "We haven’t received it!" And who’s to blame – the secretary of the MMC or the administrative branch, who messed up here? I suspect the administrative branch because such situations often occur due to poor organization. This is a comfortable position, so they often hire people who cannot properly organize administrative work and fail to systematize things. As a result, I lost ten days of waiting. Fine. I wrote a report to the battalion commander, had it signed by others, and found out that it took a whole week for the document to be sent to the Commander of the Ground Forces. I continued waiting. Only on December 23 did I receive an order for my discharge and an instruction to report to the TCR (Territorial Centre of Recruitment and Social Support) within two days. And here’s the important part: it turns out that we don’t have a "roadmap" for a person transitioning from military service to veteran status...

- Which the state should have done.

- Of course! Look, on 24 December, I arrive at the TCR in such a good mood. Yes, I am admitted without a queue. And then they ask me if I have brought any photos. You can guess the answer the first time (smiles - O.M.).

- No.

- (laughs. - O.M.) Well, take a picture of me on the spot with your phone! But no. The "road map" should have indicated that you could get a booklet like this in the administrative branch: "Hello, friend! We will accompany you from start to finish. Your next "station" is the TCR. Don't forget to take photos and such and such a list of documents", and then a step-by-step ‘route’. But there is no such thing! I was told on the spot where I could take a photo nearby. I took a photo and brought it back. I was registered. That was it! I asked, is there anything else? I need to know what to do next. They answered: "That's it!" I have not been given any documents to this day. Maybe it was a holiday, but today is January 14 (smiles - O.M.). True, my status in "Reserve+" has been updated. But now I'm leaving the TCR, and then what? What to do? Recovery, treatment, rehabilitation... 

-So it's your problem now, right?

- Yes, I have to organize this process myself. Maybe I can find a government programme. But why can't I just get the information right away? The same booklet with the text: "Congratulations on your new status! The Ministry of Veterans Affairs has been waiting for you. You can apply here or here". Somehow it should be the same!

- Listen, the Ministry's website has the phone number of the Single Veterans' Line.

- And what about the feeling?! I don't want to feel like a beggar, do you understand?! Why is the system built in such a way that I have to ask someone, to prove whether I am a hero or not?! Every time I do this, I want to talk about it less and less. Because I tell a lot to people who meet me for the first time. I’m getting less and less interested in it. Of course, you can look at the situation from the perspective that it’s your responsibility, so you have to search and make calls. But why should it be this way? I have registered with the TCR as a veteran, and the Ministry receives a notification – plus one. Then write, call, invite, explain. You have a ton of information about us! We are registered everywhere. I bet even Moscow has accessed our data from the registers. That’s why I say there should be some kind of booklet listing the places where I’m expected, where I can go for consultations, and even reminders like: "Don’t forget to visit your family doctor." By the way, he should also have suggestions for us. For example, a one-week rehabilitation trip to Zakarpattia or even abroad. That is what real care for war veterans should look like. I plan to see a family doctor in the near future. But I’m talking about the feeling when you don’t want to seem intrusive. A veteran has dignity. He will not walk around with an outstretched hand. On one hand, of course, a person is responsible for their own life. But hold on – we have an entire structure that receives massive funding! It is their job to make this process easier so that I don’t have to waste my time searching for things but instead focus on how to move on with my life. Some might say: "He wants too much!" But I would reply that the guys at the front believe they have rights. And when you return and are thrown into civilian life, then what? If the Ministry of Veterans Affairs didn’t exist, fine. But excuse me, you hold so many fancy conferences on these topics!

- And the government, on behalf of the president, has already approved the entire Veterans' Policy Strategy until 2030 (Serhii smiles. - O.M.). I see your reaction, but I'll ask you anyway, do you have hope for all this?

- It’s just the same like billion trees. It seems to me that the more grand plans and slogans we hear, the less actually gets done. To be fair, two of my comrades - veterans received grants and restarted their businesses. So it’s not a complete failure, but these are just isolated cases. I repeat: I am outraged by the lack of a roadmap. When you step outside the TCR gates – what’s next?! If I spent three years mastering military skills, then who am I now? It’s good that I have my own projects…

- But not everyone is like that! In addition, war veterans often have severe injuries, some have lost two limbs...

- Imagine someone like that coming to the TCR and being told that they need photos, so they have to go to the studio, and they're on a wheelchair! I suspect that this is exactly what happens. Why not prevent the crisis? It's the same with the Ministry. Why should I have to look for something with the feeling that I have been abandoned? People are different. In such a situation, many people will take the position of the offended, and they have the right to do so, because they should be taken care of a little.

-Why does the state have such an attitude?

- I do not rule out that it is just a job for them. Are there any war veterans there? Remember the case when a veteran resigned with a scandal (former serviceman Yevhen Shybalov resigned from the Ministry of Veterans Affairs because of humiliation by the management - O.M.). How is this possible? It turns out that the Ministry is such a toxic structure that a veteran cannot get along there! Guys, you need to clean up your organization!

Another problem is with state salaries. Even if someone wanted to join the civil service after leaving the service, how could they?

- You were offered a job with a salary of eight thousand hryvnias a month, right?

- Yes, as a director at the House of Culture. Look, there are projects to employ war veterans in various organizations, such as Veteran Hub and Lobby X, but these are private initiatives. They are cool, high-quality but they are not state initiatives. So I have a lot of questions for the Ministry of Veterans Affairs, a lot... You don't know how to act properly, what are the needs? Create a council of war veterans who will simply advise you, give you tips and guidance. Who better than a veteran to understand these problems and needs? If you were to paint a portrait of a veteran, what would it look like? This is a tired, disappointed person in all state institutions, the authorities and society. He has been through so much. He is offended that they have not been replaced for a long time. It was often due to poor management of the units. Even just at the level of psychological needs. Soldiers are often suspected of being refuseniks. So a person who has been at war for a long time is not withdrawn not because there is no one to replace him, but because they do not see the need. Like: "What are these ideas about 'NATO' standards, that a soldier should stay in a combat zone for no more than three months? What is this nonsense?". This pathos despises and devalues the work of psychologists. I'm talking about colonels from headquarters who often come for inspections. They would say to my face: "You are doing something stupid now. I will look him in the eye for five minutes and he will return to his position!"

- Let's explain to our readers: before you left the service, you provided psychological support to military personnel...

- I served in the 72nd centre for Moral and Psychological Support of the TDF forces. We recorded our previous interview in 2022 when I was fighting in Kharkiv and Donbas as part of the 130th Battalion of the Territorial Defence Forces. And then I moved to this centre to work on internal communications: to teach how to conduct an after-action analysis or implement the NATO After Action Review standard - that is, how commanders should use this powerful tool to improve the combat capability of the unit and minimize potential losses. Everyone understands that conclusions need to be drawn. But not everyone knows how to build a dialogue to reach them. For the most part, those Soviet meetings are about rewarding the guilty and punishing the innocent. Or simply not to look into it. And psychology says that if you accuse an innocent person once and twice, the third time, even if he is right, he will go into a shell and not talk about how to improve the situation. Internal communications in the military are usually task-oriented. If you are lucky, you will have more or less warm relations within your small unit. Now we don't have the luxury of selecting commanders through tests, as is the case in business. Because if you are an officer, you are automatically a commander. And it doesn't matter if you are a sociopath, a sadist (unfortunately, there are plenty of those too) or a simple "person with ingrained Soviet mentality". And if we are talking about a colonel, the loss of a battalion in one day will be a tool for him to show off - "I fought". It was the Soviet system that worked like this: if you fought, how many casualties did you suffer? It was believed that the more you had, the better you had won.

-Although it should be the other way round - the more lives you save, the better.

-  And now most of the losses are due to shelling, FPV. A person can never go on an attack but die in such a situation. Remember how they sometimes say: they brought the "cutie pies" from the training centre, and a week later one of them died. But we understand that one of them could have been killed along with the one who had been at the front for three years, or the one who had been there for ten. And it happened simply because they were hit.

So, having served in the 72nd centre, I noticed a very interesting point. Look, in late 2022 and early 2023, centres for moral and psychological support (MPS) for various branches of the armed forces were established. At the same time, combat stress control groups (CSCGs) were set up in brigades. This is in order to report according to NATO standards: look, we care about the psychological state of our personnel. I can't tell you much about other units. I can tell you about the 72nd Centre, where all the combatants were brought together - those who passed the 2022 training as riflemen, received their primary officer ranks and began to deal professionally with psychology, internal communications, etc. They were very motivated. Such a high-quality team. However, the leadership did not want to think systematically. The then commander of the TDF forces, Tantsiura, had to say: "It's great that I now have MPS and moral and psychological support units!" This is a new structure that should be parallel to and accountable to the commander of the Territorial Defence Forces, and it could have been very powerful. But he thought otherwise. Now I'll tell you what sabotage can really look like. Tantsiura forced us to go only to the Bakhmut direction, although our centre was supposed to work with all the TDF forces along the entire defence line and across the country. We pointed this out. We also offered: "Let's train units that are preparing to enter the combat zone, because it is impossible to train in the combat zone, you can only support them. We need to be proactive! He: "You are offering bullshit! Go where you're told!" So we went. We duplicated the work of combat stress control groups, which, by the way, had a lot of shady and unprofessional people in them, which the commander was not interested in. So much for sabotage: give deliberately stupid tasks and break people who have the right vision. Make sure that the structure that could act as a head office and coordinate and reinforce dozens of CSCGs simultaneously is forced to deal with spot fires. Another situation: you told us that you have to improve the morale of the personnel. Okay. We come to the company, talk to them, conduct psychoeducation, and everything is fine. And the guys say they are ready to defend the country, but they don't have the necessary equipment. They were given four mortars, three of which do not work...

- Or they delivered faulty 120mm mines, as was the case recently.

- Jigs!  They also talk about the lack of coordination with adjacent units. In other words, they raise a lot of additional issues. And we naively think that the commander wants to know the real state of affairs. We write a report. We give a copy to the battalion commander and the original to the commander. Instead, we get a severe mindscrew for meddling in matters that are not our concern—logistics and other issues. They say, "You are psychologists, so stick to your job…"

- It's all connected. What will be the morale of the military if there is nothing to fight with?

- Thank you! Even a civilian journalist understands this. We tried to show that psychology accounts for only 10-15 percent of the entire MPS (moral and psychological state) structure. The rest is about the internal climate, the professionalism of commanders, logistics, and so on. In other words, failures in these areas have a significant impact on the morale of the soldiers. But the commander kept telling us: "Stay out of things that are not your concern!" And so it went—once, twice, three times. Then he dismissed our commander, who was a competent professional and did quality work, from the leadership of the center. We were then instructed to write different reports—just following the template: in a proper way - accordingly". Tantsiura demanded reports written like this: "A meeting was held. The soldiers admitted their mistakes and immediately returned to their positions." Seriously?!

You know, Tantsyura made us constantly appear even for formation (in the combat zone!) when he came there and even forced us to live in the same room instead of being dispersed, but he never came to talk to us. That is, to the unit that is directly subordinate to him! And a lot of information was coming through us. People told us a lot of things. Sometimes we could help, and sometimes we could only sympathise...

- Think of a story that impressed you the most.

- "When we arrived near Kupyansk last year, we met soldiers who had just withdrawn from their positions in the middle of a field the day before. They asked for permission to withdraw three hundred meters, where the terrain would be more suitable for defense. By that time, the enemy had already deployed an entire unit of unmanned aerial vehicles, so our guys needed to find cover. But their request was denied, as they were on positions marked on the map by the command. They had just arrived, and were immediately told, 'Go back!' Just like that, with no analysis or adjustment to the approach. It seemed the commander simply needed to report to higher-ups that the task had been completed. But how were they supposed to go back? They couldn’t. The Military Law-Enforcement Service had already arrived because they were labeled as ‘refuseniks.’ Seriously? These volunteer soldiers have been defending the country for so long, and this is how they’re treated? What disrespect! I went to the commandant and said, 'Give us at least an hour to work with them, help them process what happened, and figure out what needs to be done to return to their positions.' He replied, 'No problem! But our conversation is different: we either intimidate them, or we take them away.' We went to see the guys, some of whom were in tears. One of them told us that yesterday at their position, he had to make a choice: either save his brother, who was seriously wounded and likely wouldn’t survive, or rescue his lightly wounded comrade. His brother whispered for him to pull out the second soldier. How is he supposed to feel after that? A 'refusenik'? Really?! I sat with him and understood the emotional state they were in. What does it mean to go back to that position now? Their perception of reality is completely dulled. It’s emotional numbness. A person in that state doesn’t care about what’s going on around them. And yet, they’re told: 'You’ve had a good night’s sleep. Time to move out!' How can that be?"

-What happened to those guys afterward?

- I don't know. But we talked to them. I conducted an After Action Review with them. It turned out great. We helped them transform their emotional chaos into a structured action plan and outlined ten steps they needed to take to win in those positions. That is, what was really necessary to avoid certain death. The guys now had a clear plan. When representatives of the Military Law Enforcement Service came in after us, they were no longer speaking emotionally but clearly, specifically, and to the point about what was needed. I hope everything worked out for them.

In general, these are painful things that you keep remembering. Like Tantsiura's disdain, for whom psychological support for soldiers was just a formality. In addition to what I’ve already told you, he came up with another absurd idea – he demanded that we make a plan a month in advance of which battalions we would visit. Of course, we were planning blindly. Because you call the battalion leadership and say: "We're coming to you tomorrow." The response: "Why?" The dialogue would go like this. Me: "We have an order." Battalion Commander: "But we have no issues. We’re serving and working fine." "But we have a plan." "Okay, come and have coffee." And he was right! We weren't needed there. But there were others who called and asked for help, and we couldn’t go to them because of the plan! It was impossible to explain this to the commander. He treated us like servants – raised his voice, cursed, constantly harassed us, and said we were wasting our time. So what is there to talk about?! This is such a horrifying 'remnant of the Soviet Union.'

- You left the centre, didn't you?

- I did. They changed the wording from "moral and psychological support" to "psychological support." But no matter how much you shuffle beds in a brothel, the problem lies elsewhere. They also restructured the MPS into PSP – Psychological Support of Personnel. Do you know what they call it at the front? "The triple P – jacks." I hate this formality. They don’t even know what slides to prepare anymore to impress their NATO partners – like, "look how great we are." In reality, they have no clue about the actual work. They are still using knowledge from 10-15 years ago. In their heads, they still see themselves as morale officers. There’s a party line, and that’s it! But where are morale officers, and where is psychology? These are two entirely different things! They only put on a show of vigorous activity: attending conferences, arranging the right books on their shelves, and writing 300-page research papers that reflect the "in a proper way - accordingly" concept.

- That reminds me of a famous phrase by Leonid Chernovetskyi when he was the mayor of Kyiv: "My young team and I are doing something important."

- That’s the mentality of partycrats! This is how they create the appearance of work – hire a good SMM guy to promote themselves and make it look like they’re doing something big. When I met them, I realized they felt very important and treated everyone else with arrogance. I was 51 years old at the time. So what if I had just become a junior lieutenant? And yet, they spoke to me like I was a fresh university graduate. In their eyes, they only see your rank. Seriously?!

- I often hear from soldiers that there is still plenty of 'Soviet mentality' in the army.

- But there are units where it doesn’t exist. I worked with the assault troops of the Defence Intelligence of Ukraine (DIU) – I conducted training in applied leadership psychology. I was pleasantly surprised to see that they conduct after-action reviews of combat operations, analyzing them in detail...

- I know the Third Assault Brigade operates in the same way.

- Yes, they are among the top units here. We should follow their example, starting with how they use the British TRiM (Trauma Risk Management) methodology, which operates on a peer-to-peer principle. When used systematically, there is no need for a psychologist to spend time assessing the state of the "client". There are trained personnel for that, who may not have a psychological education but possess the necessary knowledge and skills. It’s a very effective approach.

- Finally, I'd like to ask you to tell us about your Improv 4.5.0 Studio, which you founded to continue to help the military and war veterans.

- Improv 4.5.0 is part of a broader philosophy called #HOBBYWAY, which focuses on creating hobby-centric communities. I believe that one of the key tools for a war veteran’s adaptation is helping them rediscover themselves through their hobbies, whether it’s fishing, sports, theatre, chess, and so on. It’s not for everyone, but for most, it is. Such activities can keep war veterans from going down a deviant path. You know, the socialization of teenagers and the resocialization of war veterans are very similar. The goal is for the person to become a productive member of society. In both cases, it’s the same components: complexes, triggers, self-doubt, feelings of loneliness, and so on. That’s why hobbies and clubs are so important. But they need to fit the age group and capabilities. War veterans, like grown-up kids, also enjoy playing something. If you come and see how they participate in our improvisations, it’s impressive! Imagine: tough stormtroopers acting out roles, creating stories on the fly! It’s fun and cool. They really enjoy it. #HOBBYWAY is my philosophy, which I’m gradually trying to convey to everyone. It has its own strategy. First, there’s a big event where the first contact happens. Then comes the second level, where they can stay as long as they like until they feel the need to see a psychologist and work through their issues. That’s when they realize: I’ve accumulated so much dirt that I need to get rid of it. I can’t come back to my beloved in clean sheets after messing with a car engine…

- You need to take a bath.

- Not just wash up, but "scrape off" the grease. At the third level, they move on to training and education, and at the fourth level, they take responsibility for a specific area of work. #HOBBYWAY is like a template that can be applied to any hobby that already exists. It’s a consultative concept for those who want to create something for war veterans. Not just volleyball once a week. Sure, at first, that’s okay. But eventually, it becomes something mundane, like having a beer after training, and that’s it. So you need to think about what can be the second or third step after volleyball, and how you want to help these people move forward. In other words, #HOBBYWAY is a universal strategy that anyone can use.

Improv 4.5.0 is a recreational therapy based on applied improvisation. It is a studio that helps war veterans recover, re-socialise, support each other and train a lot of interesting cool skills. Improvisation is about flexibility, adaptability, communication, the ability to be here in the moment and listen and hear, about seeing opportunities in the midst of obstacles, taking responsibility for the situation. It is about personal development and worldview transformation. We are still doing this project on a local basis. I've just quit my job and am looking for options to fully implement it. I want to make a large enough studio in Kyiv so that about a hundred war veterans can attend various classes and make performances for their families. I should note that we do not focus on acting. The difference between acting courses and our improvisation classes is that improvisation teaches you not to act, but to live. All the skills that war veterans learn here work in life. This is the trick.

I also use Improv 4.5.0 for active military personnel. I told you that I trained the DIU soldiers. I did it in such a way that improvisation was at the level of skills, not just knowledge. That is, on the subconscious, in the first reaction. I am glad that such units exist. They are motivated, they are being trained, but I was able to give them additional information and skills. We improvised, discussed and analysed with them. It was really cool!

You see, you can learn how to communicate or resolve conflicts in a protocol manner at any time, even online. But the ability to adequately assess the situation and respond accordingly is not. I always give an example: all professional knowledge is like maces for juggling, and improvisation is the skill and ability to juggle. That's why I continue to pursue my dream of running a studio. I communicate, establish connections, meet with business representatives who already have war veterans who need help. I am open to dialogue.

- But, going back to the beginning of our conversation, surely the state should take care of the issues you just mentioned?

- I don’t know where to start or how to approach them. Honestly, it would be great if, after reading this interview, the Ministry of Veterans Affairs could tell me who to contact, provide a space, or offer a grant. I hope so. If not, we will still create this community together with veterans, for our fellow veterans! So, taking this opportunity, I would like to invite them and interested organizations to join us through the forms available on our website https://improv450.com.ua.

Olha Moskaliuk,Censor.NET

Photos are provided by Serhii Velychanskyi